Advice on career growth, setting goals, and standing out

- Welcome, Premium members I'm Andrew Seaman, LinkedIn's editor at large for jobs and career development. We've got Paul in Orlando, Karen in Singapore, Mary in Chicago, and Felice in Denmark in the comments. Please keep introducing yourselves. I'm so happy you're here. Introduce yourselves to everyone, and also, connect with each other. Networking is so important, and there's no better time to start than right now. Today, you're going to have the opportunity to chat with Morgan Stanley's Carla Harris, the ultimate multihyphenate. She's a career expert, knows everything about the world of business. She's also an author, speaker, and singer who has sold out venues like Carnegie Hall and the Apollo Theater. You don't get more impressive than that. We are so fortunate to have her here today to talk about how to land a job and grow your career. Now, don't forget to drop your questions for Carla in the chat, and she'll be answering many of those live. But before we get to the conversation, I want to remind everyone that a replay of today's show can be found on this page following the event. And stay tuned for a debrief afterwards. I'll answer even more of your questions and share my favorite takeaways with LinkedIn news editor and my bestie, Gianna Prudente. Okay, let's get to the conversation. Carla, thank you so much for joining us. - Well, thank you for having me, Andrew. - Of course, well, you know, the first thing I want to talk about is how to set yourself up for new opportunities in today's job market, because obviously, it's a little rough out there. For people who are job-searching right now, or maybe they want to find a new opportunity, what would be your advice to them as they're sort of surveying the landscape? - Sure, so first of all, think about what it is you really want to do, and don't get stuck in what you've already done. And most people make the mistake, Andrew, of looking for something that's similar to what they've done, instead of thinking about the things that they are. number one, really good at, because you have gotten some skills from what you've already done; number two, the things that they really want to learn; and number three, the things that they think might be fun. So now once you think about those three categories, that in itself will expand your landscape with respect to how you want to go through things. The next thing to do is to think about, who do you know that are already doing some of those things that you might be interested in? Because your network is so important. And your network is important, because now I can sit down and say, "Andrew, tell me a little bit about what you do in terms of hosting a show. How'd you get into it? What is really important?" Or you can talk to people about things that they are doing in the places where they are, because there's still power in having somebody walk your resume in, or more importantly, speak your narrative. And if you're going to meet with your network, tell them why you're interested in what you're interested in doing, why you might want to work for their company, and why you think you might be good there. So when they get ready to introduce you verbally, they will repeat the same narrative. And then the last thing I'm going to say is be creative. If you think you want to get a job in fashion retail, you know, think about beauty, think about apparel. You might also want to think about actually working at retail in one of the stores, because so many of those stores will promote people that are at the door today. They will be in the executive suite tomorrow. - Yeah, and also, I think what you touch on is sort of get creative, because I think there are roles now that exist that did not exist even, like, two years ago. - Absolutely. - So if you are creative, you can sort of land in that niche and really become valuable. - No question about it. And the thing you should do is, you know, go on LinkedIn and start scrolling, and look at the job titles and how different they are today relative to what they might have looked like 10 years ago. And more importantly, look at the job description and look at what people say they are looking for and match that up with your skillset. - Yeah, and you mentioned networking earlier. And I think a lot of people, sometimes they get worried about letting people know that, "Hey, I'm job searching," or, you know, "I want to move on in my career." What is your advice for people who are fearful of reaching out? - This is what you say, and here's the script. "Hey, Andrew, you know, I'm loving what I'm doing right now and I've learned A, B, C, and D in the eight years that I've been here. But you know, it's a big world out there, so I'm also thinking about how I might leverage this going forward. What would you think based on these skills that I should be thinking about, or what have you seen out there?" You said nothing about, "I'm ready to quit my job, I hate it." You're saying, "I'm thinking about how I grow," and it could be right where I am. Maybe you will tell me how to think about this seat differently. But that's how you open up the conversation to get other information without saying, "I'm looking for a job." - Yeah, and also, I think, I'd love your perception on this, is a lot of people, I think they network wrong. They lead with the ask. In your experience and along your journey, how have you networked? Like, what is your, sort of, when you hope a relationship will pay off, how do you get to that, sort of, that part of the relationship? What are the early stages like? - Yes, whenever I'm trying to network with someone, I always have intentionality around it. Why am I having this meeting? And maybe I'm having this meeting, A, because I want you to get to know me a little bit more, or B, I want to really understand your journey, or C, I do want to ask you to introduce me to someone else. So I always start with, what am I playing for? And that's how I conduct the meeting. Now, if I'm meeting with somebody like me who wants you to get directly to the ask, I go right in and I say, you know, "Andrew, here's exactly why I'm here. I'm not going to waste your time. I want to talk to you about A, B, and C." Otherwise, I will lead up to it over time, because some people like you to have the personal relationship. That may take you three meetings. But now the fourth time I meet with you, I'm going to have an ask. - Yeah, and also, like you said, some people will cut to the chase and just say, "I feel like there's an ask behind all of this." And you know, when it comes to actually, sort of, the job search process, when you're looking at candidates or someone comes to you and says, "Hey, I think I want a job, maybe at Morgan Stanley or one of the companies you're on the boards of," what do you look for in a person? - Yes, The first thing I do is say, tell me why, right? Because they may perceive it's easy to get a job there because they know me. So I want to understand their narrative because that gives me some insight as to what they're going to say to whoever I might introduce them to. The next thing I'm going to say, "Well, tell me a little bit about what you want to do," because again, they may want to do something in finance, but they don't necessarily have to be within an investment bank to do it. So I want to understand that as well. And then thirdly, if I already know you, then you ought to be thoughtful about the perception I might have about you. What have you shown me about who you are? Have you shown me that you're a person that can be counted on, that you have follow-through, that you have follow-up, that you're really thoughtful, that you're analytical or quantitative or whatever it is around the role. So be careful when you're talking to somebody that you know. You want to be thoughtful about what they may already think about you. - Yeah, and we have a member question that I want to get to, and it's from Dr. Olusoji Isaac Ijidale in Ontario Canada. "What are the prospects for senior citizens in the job market? And how can we position ourselves in a competitive job market?" - Yes, the benefit that you have, if you are seasoned, that's what I'd like to say. I'm not going to call you, Doctor, a senior citizen, you're seasoned. The benefit that you have is that you have experience, and you've gone through a lot of different economic cycles and a lot of different situations. And so when you are sitting in front of somebody and you're trying to get a job, you want to make sure that they recognize that there's a lot of experience that you can leverage, number one. Number two, you want to show up as somebody who's agile because the knock on seasoned professionals is that you're slow, that you're stuck in your ways, that you won't think quickly. And the third thing you want to leverage is your ability to lead a team. There's so many new jobs that are cropping up, so many new spaces that companies still need someone who can corral and lead a team because they don't have the time to train all those people. So they're looking for a leader that can train, develop, and get people to execute. - Yeah, and I think that, unfortunately, those perceptions exist, but you have to fight against them. - [Carla] That's right. - And we have another member question here, and this is from Joyelle Fleming in Chicago. "Any advice for people who are thinking of pivoting into a different area?" - Yes, so Joyelle, the first thing you should do is remember that your prerequisite experience has very thing to do with your ability to get the job. In order to pivot into a new space, you need to understand what the key success factors are. And now you look at what your skills are and the experience that you've had, and be able to make a case that you can deliver on those key success factors. When you're sitting in front of someone, if they already see that you don't have the experience, now you need to say, "But I understand for this seat, in order to be successful, you need to do A, B, and C. So let me tell you how my previous experience relates to that and why I have a lot of confidence that I can deliver on that," because that's what they care about. Does she know or he know what it takes to be successful? Then they're going to start to say, "Okay, I'm listening, I'm listening," right. - Yeah, and that confidence is so key to sort of selling yourself. - Absolutely. - And I just want to give a few shout-outs to everyone in the chat. We have Annelise in France, Brit in Missouri, Sandra in Maryland, Lisa in the UK, Amy in Barcelona, Joe in Brazil. We have Morgan in Rhode Island and Dan in Toronto. So welcome to all of you. Keep introducing yourselves and submitting questions. And the next topic I'm really excited to ask you about is a roadmap for setting clear career goals. And we've talked about this in the past. - That's right. - And I think you've told me you have to have an agenda for your career. And can you tell us the process that you suggest to people? Because I know it's part of, you know, having a house, prosecuting the seat. - Yes, Oh, you remember - Can you go through that? - Absolutely, so agenda has two pieces: The house and the seat. The seat is the job. And you ask yourself before you take the seat, what kind of skills do I want to get? What kind of experiences do I want to get? What kind of networks do I want to build? What kind of trajectory do I want for myself? Those are all the questions that you ask yourself before you go to the seat. And the reason why it's important to know why you're going to the seat, at some point, you're going to start to feel like, "Ah, you know, this is not really exciting me anymore. I don't feel like I'm learning anymore." And now you can go back to the reasons you took the seat, and that will tell you whether or not you have fully prosecuted the seat. If you have, now you know your problem is you need to change the seat. If you haven't fully prosecuted it, the seat is not your problem. The other set of questions you have to ask yourself is the house. And the house is where you're prosecuting the seat. So in this case, LinkedIn. So when you're making the decision to go into the house, you say, do I like the people? Are their values aligned with mine? Do I see enough people? Have I met enough people to say that I could probably get a sponsor in that environment? Do I like the career opportunities as I see them today? Now, the answer is yes, you go to that house. So once again, when you're feeling a little unsettled, if you've already figured out that you got the right seat, now you ask the questions whether or not you're still in the right house. And if you feel like you have a voice, you're having fun, you can get a sponsor, or you have a sponsor, then the house isn't your problem. Now you know the problem is a person, and that's when you remind yourself there's not a person born that you can't get around. And whenever you're feeling stuck under one person, that should be your bell that you haven't developed your network enough around that environment, and you should start developing your network. - Yeah, because even if the person's the CEO, they're not the CEO of every other company. - [Carla] That's exactly right. - And when you say prosecute, I think it's important, you're basically saying you really have to, sort of, question it, you have to look at it, and you have to say, what is going on here, right? - When I say prosecute the seat, I mean, do the job. Right, that's what I mean there. And that's why I said if you have the agenda, if you're not feeling like it's going well, but it's not the job and it's not the house, you still like the people, you still like the values, they're aligned. Even if you don't have a sponsor, you think there are enough people there that you can get a sponsor, then that's not the problem. The problem is one person is causing you to feel this way. Now you step back and say, "Why do I feel this way? Is this person standing in my way? Do I feel like I have a voice or I don't have a voice here? I can't seem to get my voice in the room." And once you start figuring that out, then you can figure out what the issues are. If I don't have a voice in the room, why don't I have a voice in the room? Do I have a sponsor? Do I have support? Am I actually putting forth my voice in the room? Or am I sitting there saying to myself, "No, I shouldn't say that," or, "Andrew said that already," "Oh, that might not sound pretty smart." You got to get your voice in the room. - Yeah, and we have a member question here, and this is from Breta Bishop in Arlington, Virginia. "How can I develop a career path that combines responsibilities typically split across multiple roles?" - Ah, Breta, this is a great question. So first of all, do the job that you've been tasked with and do that well. And then there'll be other things that, like you said, that you see that are across the organization, you can start doing those things too. You may not be getting paid to do those things, but remember, you are adding to your experiential tool chest. So when you now are being considered for a role, you can say, "Oh, I did this and I did that in addition to what I already did." I tell people all the time, don't be so concerned with the title and whether or not somebody's paying you for the task. You will find a buyer that will pay you for the experience that you've already had. And that buyer may be internally. - Yeah, and also, it's sort of what we talked about before is that, you know, if you create that niche position, as long as there is a need out there, you're going to find someone who will pay for those skills. - [Carla] Absolutely. - And then another question here we have from Rebecca Wischmann in Nebraska, she says, "At 58, I'm finding it difficult to get beyond the second round of interviews. Any thoughts on how to make a move to actually getting an offer?" - Oh, Rebecca, I love this question, because so often, seasoned professionals focus on their experience and what they've done and not on their leadership skills. And if you are 58, chances are who's ever considering you for that role is considering you as a leader, even if you haven't held a leadership title or position in the past. So what you want to focus on is how you led a project or how you led, even if it was a volunteer situation within your organization, but you want to show that I can not only execute, but I can lead and motivate those who are working with me or around me to give their best. That is going to resonate with a potential employer. - Yeah, and also because you're serving them, really, at the end of the day. So being able to say, "Listen, I'm going to be there. I'm going to bring everyone along with me, and you know, I'm not going to work in a bubble." - That's right, because even if, let me just add this. - Yeah, go for it. - Even if you're not seeing yourself as senior, they're seeing you as senior. And so you want to show up as a senior person at the end of the day, 'cause otherwise, they're just looking at you as somebody who's going to be expensive. - Yeah, and actually, there's a person, Chip Conley, he was at Airbnb, and he pitched himself as the modern elder to sort of say, "Listen, I know everything here. I'm going to lead people. I'm going to be the adult in the room. You know, I may not be the top dog, but I'm going to help you." - I love it. - And I thought that was so smart. And another question here we have from Kausthab Phukan in Toronto, "How should people with a career gap approach their network?" - Hi, Kausthab, if you've had a career gap, meaning you've been out of the market for four or five years, you want to talk about what you did in those four or five years and how you use that time wisely, either to add to your intellectual or your experiential tool chest. That's the most important thing. So that people don't think, well, you know, you were just watching soap operas, which is fine, but you were watching soap operas for four years and that you didn't make good use of the time. So that's the important thing for you to stress when you're having those conversations. - Yeah, and also your network, you still grow it if you're not at work. You know, you have a lawyer, you have, you know, someone at your pharmacy. They're still part of your network too. - Absolutely. And that brings up a good point, Andrew. Be careful about how you're showing up in the world, in social media, as well as how you are showing up just broadly. People are watching you when you don't even believe that they're watching you. So you always want to make sure that you're curating the experience, especially when you are actively engaging with someone. How do I want this person to feel when they walk away from me? And even when you're standing in the pharmacy, how are you showing up? Are you showing up as that person that's patient that, you know, might be a little impatient that day, but you're not blowing up the pharmacist when you finally get to the front of the line. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also, I think, you know, if you're nice to people and they're part of your network, they want you to win. - Yeah, absolutely. - So they'll be the wind behind you. And another question here from India, and we have Angana Chakraborty, sorry for the mispronunciation. "How can we make the recruiters notice our resume out of a big pile of applications?" - Thank you so much for this question. I love it. One of the things I tell people to do is, yes, in the environment that we're in right now, people want you to apply online, but at the end of the day, everybody reads their overnight mail. So send your resume and an error-free cover letter, you know, via UPS, via FedEx, whatever, DHL, but send it overnight, because even though people don't open their snail mail, everybody opens it overnight. And so that'll be another set of eyes. They're already looking at it online, but now they look at it on paper, and that's twice. - Yeah, especially if they get a package. - Absolutely. - Everyone's going to open that. And then now, the next thing I want to talk about is relationship currency. And I know you've talked about this a lot. Can you explain a little bit about what that is? - Yes, relationship currency is the currency that is generated by the investments that you make and the people in your environment. None of us work in a silo anymore. We're all working in highly interdependent environments. So at a minimum, you must have a relationship with every seat that touches your seat. And relationship currency is valuable for three reasons. Number one, it gives you the ability to make the outsized ask. Number two, early on, it gets you paid and promoted. And number three, it may even help you, at the end of the day, to attract a sponsor and give you currency that when you make a mistake. You now have the currency to be resilient and to recover. - And it's sort of like a bank account then. - [Carla] Absolutely. That's the way I think about it. - And how do you know when you have enough to make a withdrawal? - Yeah, well, I would argue that when you come into an organization and you start connecting, you are already putting, you know, some currency in that relationship bank, if you will. And I don't think I would worry about how much you have, just the fact that you have it and you use it. Because here's the deal, a dollar's not a dollar's not a dollar. I may value it as a dollar, but you on another side of this relationship may think about it as $1.50. So if I'm trying to figure out how much, then I may miss it because I have the ability to make the the ask, just because we have engaged and I got some currency there. - Yeah, that's a great point. And then I think I've heard you talk before about performance currency. So what is that? So we're getting all the currency here. - Yes, okay, great. I love it. I'm a banker. I love it. - Yeah, exactly. - All right. So performance currency is the currency that is generated by your delivering that which was asked of you and a little bit extra. Every time that you perform above somebody's expectations, you do generate performance currency. It works like the stock market. Company says 25 cents a share, they deliver 40, the stock's going up, and so will yours. Performance currency is also valuable for three reasons. Early on in your career, it gets you paid and promoted because of the reputation, and it creates a reputation for you. That's the second thing that it does. And the third thing is that it may attract a sponsor, because when you have great performance currency in an environment, it raises your level of visibility such that a sponsor may naturally be attracted to you. But if it doesn't happen that way, now you have the power to ask for a sponsor. And if that currency is in that bank, then it heightens the probability that they will answer in the affirmative upon your approach. - Yeah, and also, one of the pieces of advice I always give to young professionals is people are going to underestimate you. So if you overdeliver, that professional currency will skyrocket. - Absolutely. - And you mentioned sponsor, and sometimes some people, especially in different parts of their career, they don't know the difference between mentor and sponsor. So can you explain that a little bit? - Yes, the mentor is the person you tell the good, the bad, and the ugly to This is the person you share the intimate details of your career, your fears, your concerns, your mistakes, your triumphs, your strategies. I'm here, I want to be here. Who I work, and how do I get there? And the mentor needs to be somebody that knows you very well. I couldn't say, "Oh, Andrew's going to be my mentor as I start this new show," because if you don't know me very well, you can't be a great mentor, because a mentor's job is to give you tailored advice, tailored specifically to you and to your career aspirations. So if Andrew knows Carla, and Andrew knows Jenise, and he's a good mentor, he will give us two different strategies because we're two different women. And your job is to give us tailored advice that we can successfully execute. Now, if I'm going to start a new show, you can be an outstanding advisor for me because you have the intellect and the experience to answer any question that I might have. And that advisory relationship can mature into a mentoring relationship. But here's the deal, you can survive a long time in your career without mentor, but you do not ascend in any environment without the sponsor. The sponsor is not the person you tell the good, the bad, and the ugly to. The sponsor is the person you tell the good, the good, and the good, because this is the person that is carrying your paper into the room, what room? That room where all of the important decisions about your career will be made, your compensation decisions, your promotions, your new assignments. They are all made in a room behind closed doors where you are not present. So this is the person that carries your paper into the room and use their currency, political and social currency, on your behalf to argue passionately, you get the bonus, you get the next great opportunity, you get the next great assignment. That is the sponsor. - Yeah, and also, I think for people who are wondering, "Well, why would a sponsor do that?" it's because you're basically saying, "Listen, my wins are going to be your wins, and I'm going to be behind you," right? - Absolutely, I mean, if people, you know, at the basic level, everybody loves a star. So everybody wants to have their fingerprints on somebody who's doing really well. But let's say you're not the star, but you're really very good. Well, the other reason somebody may want to help you is because somebody helped them. And there are a lot of people who are in positions of power that recognize that they did not get there on their own. And the last thing I'm going to say about that is, the way you grow your power, Andrew, is to give it away. So the more you use your power on somebody else's behalf, the more powerful you will become. - Yeah, exactly. I think that's such a good point. And now we have some member questions coming in. We have Jo from Illinois, and, "How does one go about finding a mentor in their desired new career?" - Yes, thanks so much for that question, Jo. So remember, your mentor does not need to be within your organization, nor do they need to look like you, but they have to understand the context that you're working in. So first of all, Jo, think about who already knows you very well, who you trust, that you believe that when you're speaking to them, there's going to be one agenda item, and that's you. And so not only who do you know and knows you very well, but who might understand the context that you're going into. Let's say if you're going into healthcare or you're going into entertainment, who do you know that you trust? That is a good mentor candidate for you. Now within your organization, you can start building relationships with people as an advisory relationship. And over time, as you start to get to know them and you feel good about that relationship, you can now migrate that relationship into a mentoring relationship and use it as such. But study your organization for two weeks. Figure out who has a seat at the decision-making table, who is an influencer to those who have a seat at the table, and who has a respected voice. And now you can find two or three candidates that you might start to build that advisory relationship, hoping that it matures either into a mentoring relationship or a sponsor relationship. - Yeah, I think that's really great. And also, just quickly, do you think mentorships are deliberately found or serendipitous, or both? - Both. Yeah, absolutely - Okay. Great. And another question we have here is from Nicolas in Paris. "Would you consider having a sponsor for external opportunities just as important as having one within an organization?" - Nicolas, great question. And the answer is yes. Absolutely, because again, remember I said earlier, how do you show up in the world, right? And if people really like you and they're willing to put their currency on your behalf, they don't need to be within your organization. So you can go to people who you know think highly of you and who have some currency of their own and talk to them about other things that you might want to do. And they would be willing to support you in that introduction and even support your candidacy if you engage in those conversations. - And out of curiosity, obviously you have an incredible singing career also. In fact, I played some of your music yesterday for the crew here. - Ah, thank you. - But did you have a sponsor in that that helped you say, like, "Listen, this is how you do the albums." You know, did you have a sponsor in that? - Ah, no, I didn't. But this is where relationships matter. So there was a guy within Morgan Stanley who was the greatest, name was Peter, and he was a great musician. And he was very connected, did a lot of things around the city. So I went to talk to Peter and said, "Listen, I'm thinking about doing, you know, I'm thinking about doing an album, and I don't even know where to start." He said, "Oh, you need to talk to Jeff." And because Jeff has a recording studio in his house. So I took Jeff to lunch, thinking that I could hopefully impress him enough to record me. Jeff said, "Oh, no, you need to talk to Ron." He's now the musical director on the Scarlet Pimpernel," and blah, blah, blah. And one thing led to, but it was relationships. So it was Carla, the banker, going to Peter, the trader, who went to Jeff, the salesperson. And that's what happened. And before you know it, those relationships happened. And sure enough, Ron said, "Okay, I think you can sing well enough, and I will be your producer on your first album." And then Ron introduced me to the sound engineer, introduced me to the recording studio, and that's how it went from there. And the producer that I worked with for 30 years now, Shawn Lucas, that was a relationship with a friend of mine that I knew from Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Incorporated. I said, "Girl, I'd like to sing." She said, "Oh, I know somebody." And that was a relationship that's over 30 years now. - That's amazing, and a shout-out to all the Deltas out there. - [Carla] Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. - And also, a quick shout out to Gert in Belgium, Nina in Switzerland, and we have Walter in DC, and Don in Missouri. So welcome to all of you. And then we have a question here from Nikey in Racine, Wisconsin. "How do you get hires to even look at your resume when you've been laid off three times in two years and your tenure looks like you are a job hopper?" - Ah, well, interestingly enough, in the environment that we're in now, people don't focus so much on the length of time in a space. I would argue 20 years ago, that would've been a big deal. But now employers sort of think about this job market as more opportunistic, and they recognize, again, that new opportunities are being born every day. So you just need to have a good narrative with respect to what's happened. And even if you were laid off now, I'm going to challenge you to think a little bit about what might have happened. Did you fail to build the relationships? Were you operating and doing a good job, but not offering that which was valued? Did you really know what the key success factors were in that role? Or maybe the companies weren't doing well, and unfortunately your timing was bad. But you want to think about those things because you want to have a narrative that you can deliver in the next conversation, because somebody's going to look at that and say, "Whoa, wow, you know, you moved around a lot in the last six or seven years. Talk to me about what happened." And you want a tight narrative as to what you think happened over that period of time. - Yeah, and also, I think, especially in your resume, once you put those accomplishments on there, if you say, "Hey, listen, I may have had a short tenure, but look at what I did." - I like it. - And then you could say, you know, "It doesn't matter that I was only there six months, I still did what I needed to do. - I delivered. Yes, sir. - Yes. And then another question here we have from Dan in Toronto, a lot of Torontians out there. "What's the right level of staying engaged with a potential new opportunity without seeming desperate or annoying?" - Oh, I love this question. I'm a big fan of, you know, every six or seven weeks, to drop a quick line, right? Say, you know, "I'm assuming that all is still as it was last time we spoke, but I just want you to know, I continue to be very interested in joining the team," and give them one or two reasons why. So just remind them, because I have to say, at the end of the day, perseverance plays off. I can't tell you, and I was a big recruiter over the course of my career, I can't tell you how many times I've gone back to a candidate who we didn't hire the first time. Now we have a need, but because they kept in touch and would drop an email here or there, I'd say, "Hey, let's have a conversation. Why don't you come in?" And they got hired every single time. - Yeah, and in fact, I know people who want to work here, who every few months, they'll reach out and they'll say, "Hey, can we hop on a call?" And I'm always glad to do it because they're excited, And that's who you want to work with you. - Absolutely. - And for someone who says, "Listen, I don't really know how to network, especially with people I don't know," what is your advice for reaching out to people cold? - Yes, so everybody has a connection. And you know that old saying about six degrees of separation? I would argue that it's one. So even though it may feel cold, do a little background on that person. You know, what school do they go to? How long have they been at that organization? What seat are they sitting in? Let's say they're sitting in a CFO seat. Now you think to yourself, do I know any other CFOs? Who was the CFO at my last organization? Who in my class has now risen in the finance world, that they might be a CFO? Make that call to see if they know that person. Then it now becomes not cold, it's warm. And if it happens to be cold, you send a letter and say, "Hey, I've admired you from afar. I saw that you did A, B, C, and D. I'm a graduate of E, F and G, and I'd love to get 15 minutes of your time." And Andrew, I'm a big fan of coffee chats. I tell people, don't ask folks out to breakfast or lunch. That's an hour. That can be a long hour if you don't have 60 minutes of content. But everybody has 15 minutes of content. And here's the thing, when you get to 14 minutes, you say, "I'm a lady," or, "I'm a man of my word. I want you to know that 'cause I want to play for another meeting with you. It's 14 minutes. I asked for 15, we can cut it here." That person is thinking, "Wow, person of their word." And that'll get you another 15. - Yeah, definitely, because if you're respectful of their time, they'll be respectful of you. And also, just sitting here beforehand, we were talking about people that we knew in common. - That's exactly right. That's exactly right. - And we're getting so many questions. And we have another one here from Selorm in Dallas, Texas. "How do you build your network if you're an introvert and socializing does not come easily?" - Okay, Selorm, I'm going to tell you that that is practice, right? So you have somebody already in your network. So ask that person to introduce you to somebody else 'cause now that's a little bit easier because that referral is coming from somebody that you know. And here's how you start the conversation. "Thanks so much for meeting with me. I'm trying to get to know as many people as I can. Let me tell you three or four things about myself. Tell me a little bit about you. How did you end up in Texas? How did you end up in the role that you ended up in? And what do you like about it? What might you change about it? How do you think about opportunities outside of that? Because I'm trying to broaden my thinking about my own role and how I should be thinking about opportunities. Thank you very much for meeting with me. I'll buy the coffee next time." - Yeah, and actually, you know, my partner hopefully is not watching, but he's an introvert. And you know, he calls it, he used to work in retail, his retail face. And he knows he has to get out there and talk to people. So he puts the retail face on and he does it. And maybe he needs a few extra days to, like, recharge, but he gets out there, and he does it. - [Carla] It's just practice. - Yeah, and then, you know, when it comes to actually doing that networking, and we talked about the relationship currency, should people be afraid of making too big of an ask? Because sometimes, you know, I know on my end, I've had conversations with people, and it was a great conversation first time I ever met. And then at the end, they'll say, "Do you have a job?" or anything like that. And they'll make a very large ask. How should people go about that? - Okay, instead of saying, "Do you have a job?" then I would say something like, "Listen, this has been a great conversation. I already knew that I liked the organization, but now that I've met you, I really think I liked the organization. Keep me in mind if anything ever comes up, because I'd love an opportunity to maybe be on your team at some point, just to think about that," right? Because I understand that sometimes people feel like, "Oh, my God, this is my only opportunity. I may not ever get to sit with Andrew again. I got to say something." So instead of saying, "Do you have a job?" Just say, "Ooh, keep me in mind. I'd love to have a further conversation with you." - I think that's such a smart way to go about it and sort of close that conversation. And we're getting a lot of questions about career gaps. So we have Renee from Apollo Beach, Florida, "How would you address a long gap from your last position?" - So Renee, I don't know what your situation is. And perhaps you took 10 years off to raise your kids, or perhaps you took five years off to take care of your parents and you want to be in a position where you can speak about that narrative in a constructive way as to why it was so much time off. And then you want to think about what you did over those 10 years. Maybe you took a class, maybe you sharpened your technological skills, but be able to talk about what you did in that time, and how now you are excited to get back in because you're bringing all of these 10 years of experience where you had a chance to do these things to bear. Because even if you were a caretaker, okay, that says you were a problem-solver, you had to build relationships, you had to be able to think quickly on your feet, that you can work well under pressure, all of those things you have to do just to be a caretaker. So you want to talk about how that gave you an edge, if you will, around those things, all of which you can apply, you know, in a corporate environment. - Yeah, and you also, I think earlier you mentioned volunteering. So, you know, if you were a treasurer or something for an organization in your community, those are actually task and roles that you're performing, right? - Yes, sir. - And now we're getting questions also about ageism. So what do you think are the best ways to deal with it? And this is coming from Dave in Atlantic Beach, New York. - Yes, so first of all, don't think about yourself as, you know, a senior citizen. Think about yourself, again, as seasoned. If you are of a certain age, you've had 25, 30, 35, 40 years of experience. Now, I want you to take inventory of what that experience is. Has it been sales experience? Has it been marketing? Has it been managing a group of people? Have you been responsible for operations? And actually, think about all the things, all the skills that you've acquired under those big headings. Now, I want you to think about, Dave, what is it that you really want to do? And I'm going to say it again, don't be confined by that what you have done. There's so many roles that have been created in the 35 or 40 years that you've been working. Look at some of those and think about how you might be able to apply your experience to that. Now you want to think about the things that you're interested in learning. You know, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, we weren't talking about artificial intelligence. It's new. Nobody owns the playbook. Jump in and start learning some of those things on your own and think about how you might apply that AI today to the things that you did in the past, and be able to talk about that. Last thing I'm going to say, Dave, is think about the other things that you might want to do. You might have superpowers that you didn't even know you had. I spent most of my career in finance. I didn't see Carla, the career strategist, coming. I didn't see Carla, the speaker, coming. I didn't see Carla, the author, coming. All of that was born from my experience, frankly, as a banker. - Yeah. Well, I'm happy that all those Carlas met you. - [Carla] Me too. Me too. - And also, I think especially with ageism, and I find this even, you know, as I get older, you kind of have to give yourself a pep talk, because if you think, "Okay, this is going to hold me back, whatever it may be," you know, you project that onto whatever conversation you're having. - Yes, sir. - So you sort of have to give yourself, "Hey, you know, I'm going to walk in there. I'm going to be energetic. I am going to show them that I am the right person for this." - Right. You have to start looking at it as an asset. You know, a 30-year-old doesn't have that kind of experience and can't pull from all of that experience to be able to present that in an environment. People ask me all the time, Andrew, how do you deal with being the only, you know, woman in the room, or the only person of color in the room? And my response is, if you're the only one in the room that looks like you, you're the only one in the room that looks like you. Right? It's an asset. Right? Because now you don't have to compete for attention. Everybody sees you when you walk in. And so now you just deliver your excellence right into that opportunity. - And then you mentioned earlier that there's not one person that you can't get around. And we have a question here from Kevin in Canada, and Kevin wants to know, how do you get around office politics, or how do you navigate it? - Yes, so be very careful, Kevin. I'm a big fan, and I've said my entire career, you want to be careful about engaging in those politics, because with politics, there's always a wind, and the wind may shift, and you don't want to find yourself on the other side of that wind. So again, I'm a big advocate of building relationships broadly in the organization. And be careful about aligning yourself to one side, unless you have outstanding political skills. I've seen people my entire career do it, and they've been successful at it, if that's your strength, you know. But for me, it was never my strength. With respect to politics, I always say that there's two types of people, are your workhorse and, you know, a political, you know, strategies, if you will. And if you're the workhorse, then you better focus a lot on the relationships. If you're the political strategist, you shoot your shot. But it's always risk associated with that. More risk here than here. - Yeah, and also, I think especially engaging in the office politics, what I've always found, and I learned this early on, because I think everyone tries everything when they're early in their careers, the political game, it takes a lot of energy. And I'd rather put that into being very good in my job than actually engaging in the politics. - I like it. I like it, Andrew. Absolutely. - And I guess the other thing is, we hear a lot about career setbacks, or people will say, "Oh, I made this mistake at this job," and it probably weighs on their mind more than anything else. So what is your advice for people to overcome career setbacks? - Yeah, so here's the deal. Nobody is successful without making a mistake. Making a mistake does not make you special. What makes you special is how and if you get up. So if you've had a career setback, think about, what did I learn from that? What are the tools that I extracted? What would I do differently knowing what I know now? And know that it is not career-limiting. If you still have a job, you still got a chance to play. And if you don't have a job because of that mistake, you now can extract those lessons and invest in the next try, knowing what to do differently. But either way, you have learned something from it, so it's of value. Some of the pearls that I talk about all the time came from making a mistake, falling in a hole, figuring out how to crawl out of that hole and now understanding the lesson. But it's important that you get the lesson from the mistake because when life comes to teach you a lesson, if you don't pass the test, you will repeat the class. - Yes, and Carla's pearls - That's right. It's coming again. - And then now we have Sheridan in New York. "How do you advocate for fair compensation as a woman of color, especially when you believe an offer undervalues your experience?" - Ah, Sheridan, thank you so much for that question. When you are going into an opportunity, it's your responsibility to make sure you understand the market value of the seat. Every seat has a market value. And I am not a fan of taking below market value because it's so difficult, if ever, to catch up. So if you get an offer, let's say you get an offer for $150,000, I'm just making it up, but the market value of the seat is $175,000 to $225,000. Your response should be, "Thank you so much for the offer 'cause I think I'm the right gal for the job as well, but I've done my homework, and the market value of the seat is between $175,000 and $225,000. If your offer was somewhere in that range, I would hit that bid," right? And if they say, "Oh, but we've done our homework, and we know you're making $125,000 so $150,000 is ahead of the game," your response is, "It's irrelevant what I'm making now because surely you want me to deliver with excellence, and so you would want me to be compensated for the contribution that I'm going to make. So the range, I'm there." But don't do it. Don't step back and take it below, because if you do, Sheridan, you're going to have a hard time catching up. - And I think what's sort of in there too is that you shouldn't be afraid to negotiate. - That's exactly right. You have to, because it says something about you are willing to take a job and you're being asked for an A product, but you're willing to take something that's really a C or a D in terms of the compensation. Now, let's say you're in a role where you negotiated poorly when you went in. Now you need to have the conversation and say, "I've done the mark, I've done the homework, and this is the value of the seat. Tell me how we are going to get here." - Yeah, no, I think that's so wonderful and such great advice. And another question, and we have it from Ilker, "How do you deal with imposter syndrome while job hunting?" - Ah, thank you so much, Ilker for that question. Listen, if you have the experience or the intellect to do the job, then you have to keep saying over and over to yourself, "I have the experience, I have the intellect. Why would I believe I can't do it?" Because the problem is, if you walk in thinking that you cannot do that job, it's going to come through your pores, and you won't be able to deliver, you know, with confidence and make the person on the other side of the conversation believe that they would be making a mistake if they didn't hire you. And that is your job in an interview, is to make the other person believe that they're making a mistake if they don't hire you. So why would you have the imposter syndrome? If the opportunity has been delivered to you, then you're ready. - Yeah, and then also, a lot of times when people ask me about imposter syndrome, I always tell them, everyone has imposter syndrome at some point, but there are differences between the people who know how to push through it and those who don't. - [Carla] I like it, Andrew. - And then another question here, and we have it from Koen in Amsterdam. "Which qualifications do you feel will be more important in the coming years given the pace of change?" - Oh, Koen, I would say agility. I'm going to give you the broad answer. I'm not going to say this tech skill versus that one, because again, things are evolving so fast, so showing that you're agile and that you're hungry and willing to learn is going serve you well. Obviously, you need to be able to talk about all the things that you've done and all the things that you know now in that conversation, but you want to demonstrate that you're willing to bring it on. Bring it on. I'll learn it, and I'll deliver it. - Yeah, and especially with AI, I always tell people, I'm never going to be an AI engineer, a lot of people aren't going to be AI engineers, but I'll play with it. - Yeah, there you go. - Yeah. And then we have a question here from David in South Carolina. "The world I'm looking to work in says I need a degree. I started working early and have had success. How do I overcome this hurdle? - That you need the degree? - Yeah, - Okay, so David, if you don't have the degree, but you have the experience, that's really what you want to focus on. And they may ask you, "Why didn't you go get the degree?" And you can say, "I was very interested in getting as much experience as I could because I know that I'm a quick learner. And I've been able to acquire all of this intellect and all of these experiences, so I'm ready to deliver even without the specific degree." And so you want to convince the person that you didn't need the degree in order to do the job. But then I'd say, "But if it's really important to you as an employer, give me the opportunity, I'll deliver. And within X amount of time, maybe it's a BA or an AA, I'd be more than happy to go get that credential if it matters that much because I want this experience." - Yeah, my only suggestion was, unless it's a doctor or a lawyer, please go to school for that. - Okay. Well put, touche. - Yeah. Yeah. And then we have another question here from Priyya in India. After COVID, the meaning and purpose of the question, "Where do you see yourself in five years?" has completely changed. What are your thoughts on that question, and how do you answer it? - Priyya, I still like that question because what the employer is trying to figure out is whether or not you have a vision for yourself. And so you want to say, "Yeah, in five years, obviously, I don't know what technology will be available to us, I don't know what opportunities would be available to us, but I know in five years of experience in this organization, I want to be in a position to lead and make a bigger impact." That's your answer. - Yeah, and also, what I like is a lot of times, people are honest with their answer with that. And when I've interviewed people and they say, "Oh, you know, I want to do X, Y, or Z," and I realize that's not at all aligned with this position, you know, that's part of the interview process that I don't think this is for you. - That's right. - This isn't going to get you on the path of where you want to go. - That's exactly right. And notice my answer didn't give you any specificity, but it said, "I want to lead. I want to make a bigger contribution," which is attractive to any employer. - Yeah, and now we have another question here also from, let's see, Spain, and it's Natalia. "What are the soft skills recruiters would look for in a first interview?" - Ah, Natalia, your ability to listen. That's number one. Be careful, never cut off an interviewer, because you want to make sure that you fully understand what they're asking you. Number two, showing the agility. And number three, showing that you're comfortable in your own skin. If you're sitting in front of somebody and they see you're nervous or you're sweating, or every answer you're saying, "That's a good question," now the person is thinking, "Oh, my goodness, she has to have time to think. You know, she's not listening, and she's not ready." So those are the things I would tell you, Natalia. - I think that's a really good advice. And then we have another question here, and let's see, it's from Shideh in San Francisco. "I left my last job due to a toxic leadership. How do you explain why you left your last company?" - Well, Shideh, the thing that you should say to yourself is, "How do I reposition this and say, 'I love the company, I love the opportunity, but there were a lot of different changes that were going on at that time, and I was looking for A, B, and C.'?" Right, because now you want to focus on the things that you want to get next and how you want to leverage the experience that you have now. And I didn't necessarily see an opportunity over the next couple of years with my ability to do this. I wouldn't talk about the toxic leader because you don't know who that person knows. And that person may know that person, and in fact, they might have already done some homework on you by talking to that person. So be very careful, and focus more on the things that you want to get in your career. - Yeah, and it's almost like, listen, I'm looking ahead and, you know, I left my last company because I'm looking for a culture that really embraces their workers and really wants to see them succeed. - And I would say, Andrew, you don't even really have to talk about the culture, right, because the answer I gave was an honest answer. You want these other things in your career. Now, what you're not saying is that you didn't think you could get those things in that organization with that person in the way, but it still doesn't erase the fact that you want these things. So that's why I'm saying focus on what you want, and you're saying, I wasn't sure that I'd be able to get it over the next couple of years in my career. - Wonderful. Well, thank you so much Carla. - Thank you, Andrew. - I'm so fortunate that I get to sit down with you. - Ah, I'm the fortunate one. Thank you. - And everyone I know watching has gotten as much out of this as I did, so thank you so much. - Ah, you're most welcome. Thanks for having me. - And now up next, we want to show you that we have so much data here at LinkedIn, so keep watching. The show is far from over, and we're going to offer you some information on our global Jobs on the Rise list for 2025. Then we'll be back with another great conversation where I'll be joined by my LinkedIn news colleague, editor Gianna Prudente and my bestie, to talk about our takeaways from our chat with Carla. LinkedIn's Jobs on the Rise for 2025 reveals the roles growing worldwide. Here's what you need to know. Trend number one, AI is everywhere. From the US to the UK and Singapore, demand for AI engineers and researchers is soaring. Companies are racing to integrate AI, creating big opportunities for engineers, developers, and consultants. Trend number two, sustainability is taking center stage. Sustainability jobs, like sustainability specialists and environmental officers, are on the rise. From green energy to corporate responsibility, businesses are prioritizing the planet more than ever. Trend number three, healthcare and wellness careers are expanding. aging populations and a focus on wellbeing are driving demand for physical therapists, neuropsychologists, and behavioral therapists. If helping people is your passion, now's the time. No matter your industry, adapting to these trends can help you stay ahead. Welcome back. Wasn't that incredible? A link to all those lists are available in the chat. Now joining me to reflect a bit on Carla's wisdom is my incredible colleague and my good friend Gianna Prudente. Gianna, welcome. - I'm so excited to be here. - What about Carla? Isn't that incredible? - Incredible, I'm literally going to send the replay to all my friends. She dropped so many gems, and I loved her emphasis on how to make networking non-transactional. I think that's something a lot of us struggle with, especially when you're starting out. And I love this idea of leading with what you've learned and where you want to go, because so many of us really underestimate the value of kind of speaking our goals into existence. And like she was saying, when you do that, then that person can connect you to an opportunity right away or potentially down the line once you kind of invest and get that currency growing. - Yeah, and also what I think, you know, hopefully, everyone at home takes away from Carla is, like, the energy she has is just, like, "listen, I'm moving forward. You're coming with me or not. You know, it's up to you, but I'm moving forward." And that's what I always love when I listen to her talk, when I see her videos, all of that. So I really like that. And then also, I think her idea of sort of prosecuting seats in the house and everything like that is really important because there's so many different components to a career. There's the company, there's the position, there's the leadership, and then there's the industry, which I think is probably the neighborhood where that house is. And when you were starting out, you know, obviously, you know, you came out of college, you came to LinkedIn. We're so fortunate that we hired you. So how did you figure out what path you wanted to get on? - Oof, well, you know, like you were saying, it can be so easy to get focused on just one aspect. Like, I want this job, or I want this company. And I think I was super shortsighted when I started out because I said, "I want to be a journalist," but I didn't know I could be a journalist working in tech. And so that first part, you know, figuring out the seat, the job that I wanted, the skills that I wanted, you know, how I saw my career trajectory going, and then figuring out, okay, well, what are the companies I can even explore this at? And LinkedIn happened to be an opportunity, and I thought, I don't really know how that's going to work. And it was like this most beautiful thing, so. - Yeah, and I think also, in my case, what I've learned, I've obviously been in the workforce, like, 20 years at this point, but what I really like about it is that you can basically sort of say, "Okay, you know, I'm going to go into this profession." And especially when you say, "Listen, five years down the road," and I think what Carla mentioned that's so important is you don't have to get super specific. And I think that's key because you don't know what's five years down the road, especially now. - I don't know what's, like, two years down the road. - Yeah, and even when I was in grad school, you know, my grad school was only one year. If someone told me I was going to be a medical reporter, I would've laughed at them. But then lo and behold, that's where I ended up. And then if someone ever told me, "You're going to work in tech," I would've been like, "Are you crazy? I could never get one of those jobs." So I think it's really important to sort of think holistically about, okay, these are the elements of the job or the career that I want, not necessarily get too specific because otherwise you're going to miss, sort of, the forest for the trees. - 1,000%, and you know what I think that is? There's so much pressure we probably put on ourselves to have it all figured out. Like, I need to know exactly my next step for the next however many, you know, phases of my career. And if you kind of take a step back and zoom out and say, "Well, here's a loose outline of where I want to go," and do that career mapping, you give yourself space to pivot. And we know now that your career is not, you know, it's not one one linear path, right? Like, you're going to take those pivots, and you really need to just kind of give yourself room to take those turns. - Yeah, and we have a question here from member Nile. "Beyond salary and benefits, what are some often overlooked factors that job seekers should consider when evaluating a potential employer or role?" Nile, this is such a great question, and I think this is changing all the time. And what I suggest to people, and I would love your thoughts on this, Gianna, is they sit down and they list out their wants and their needs. And the needs are like, listen, I need this to feed my family. I need this because I have, you know, medical condition that needs medication and those sort of things. And then you have your wants, which is, listen, I don't want a long commute, or maybe I don't want to commute at all. And those wants have varying degrees of necessity, and those are the things that are more negotiable. So I think that's sort of how you sit down and say, "Okay, all of these things are sort of my negotiables and my non-negotiables," and those are the things that should be considered when looking at employers. And also, what I also tell people is be a stalker when it comes to the company. I don't know, that's probably a bad term to use, but, like, look at their LinkedIn, look at their social medias. Don't just take their statements at face value because every company is going to put out a nice statement that says, "Hey, listen, we are the greatest place to work on earth." Like, no company's going to admit, hey, you know, we don't really treat our employees that well, but what you could do is look at their social media. Look at what their employees are saying about them, because that's going to give you an idea of what's actually happening under the hood. - Yeah, I love this idea of having your non-negotiables and your nice-to-haves and kind of ranking those by priority. And I think when you're starting out, it can be really hard to even figure out, like, what's even on the table? You know, what should I even be looking for? So I think as you go throughout your career, you kind of understand a bit more about what you can look for in a future company. And also through networking is where you kind of get those insights, speaking to other people about their company and their role. And then you're like, "Oh, they get that offer? Maybe that's something I should look for when I'm job searching." - Yeah, and also, what I think is important that when you're going through the interview process, and I know a lot of people they view interviews as auditions, basically. - [Gianna] An interrogation. - Yeah, and an interview is really about figuring out if that company's right for you and you're right for that company. It's like the most awkward first state in the world, because, you know, either side can say no. Like, I've turned jobs down before. I've been turned down for jobs. And it's one of those things where, you know, if it's not in alignment, then it's not in alignment. And especially, it's hard to get that no, but that's part of the interview process. So someone, you know, was asking me recently about all the AI stuff that's out there and said, "Well, what if the AI generates their resume, their cover letter, and everything like that?" And you know, I said, "Well, they're still going to have to go through the interview process, and if they lie in that, it's going to be a very rough first day on the job," because they're going to get there and they're not going to know what to do. - Yeah, you know, when you're going through that interview process, it can feel like you're in the hot seat, and that's really intimidating. But when you kind of take the emotion out of it, which is so hard, I mean, that's something I struggle, my nerves are through the roof if I'm interviewing, but if you take the emotion out of it and you say, "You know, I'm coming, I'm offering something as much as they're offering something for me. This is a two-sided conversation." And that's why asking questions is so important. And not just, like, waiting till the end to say, "Oh, yeah, these are the questions I prepared for you." But having that back and forth conversation when you can is really important because it kind of, like, lets you take your guard down a bit. - Yeah, and also, especially with the nerves, that's completely normal. Like, you know, I do this a lot, but I still get nervous. And especially, like, people probably at home probably saw me sweating because, you know, Carla's so impressive. I respect her so much, and I'm like, "Oh, my God, Carla Harris is in front of me. - [Gianna] We're human. - Yeah, exactly. And now I want to get to this question. It's perfect for you because we talked with Carla a lot about ageism. But as we know, ageism is a spectrum. So there's, you know, the challenges that people maybe seasoned in their career, as Carla would say, run into, but there's also things that people starting out run into. And Hrutvvi from San Francisco is saying, "As an early professional, how can I compete with those with more experience?" - Oof, well, you know, I loved Carla's advice to seasoned professionals, saying, own that experience. And I think the same applies here. It's so easy to discount the experience you're bringing to the table when you're starting out, but you have to reflect back, and perhaps you went to college. What coursework did you take that you could position as experience? What volunteer opportunities, on-campus organizations? What did you do at school or outside of school that helped you gain skills? Because you did a lot, right? And you just have to broaden that definition of experience and position it a certain way on your resume. And it comes back to what Carla was saying about speaking your narrative. You need to be able to connect the dots for recruiters, right? So when they look at your resume, seeing how you got from point A to point B and how there's a through-line throughout all that experience. You volunteered here, you were the president of this org, and you took this course. What's the through-line, and how can you articulate that in your cover letter and then in the interview to really speak that narrative and articulate that personal brand? - Yeah, I think that's such great advice. And then to everyone watching, I just want to remind you that if you want to continue this conversation elsewhere on LinkedIn, make sure you use the hashtag WatchWithPremium. And then actually, getting back to what you were saying is, I think, you know, looking back on my career, everyone when they graduate college, they enter the job market, they're like, "Hey, I'm ready to go. Put me in and, like, I want to be CEO in five years." And that's great ambition to have. But looking back, I think it was so important for me to go through those entry-level positions or, you know, positions that I was like, "Okay, I think I could probably do like more than this," but, like, you don't know what you don't know. So doing those internships, doing those entry-level positions, that's how I learned, oh, this is what I want, this is what I don't want, and also this is what I need to be successful in the real world. So I also think just being realistic when you jump into the job market is so important. - Oh, yes, I, like, totally glamorize and romanticize everything. And I was like, wait a second, you know? You do have to manage your expectations, and that really helps when it comes to the rejection that all of us face, because that's a natural part of the process. But I think even when you do land that role, I loved what Carla said to Breta's question on, you know, how do I kind of job craft? How do I get a job that does responsibilities of another role as well? And I think we discount the value of really growing horizontally in our role and raising our hand for those stretch assignments and putting ourselves, you know, up in front of a senior leader to give us those opportunities. And that's just as important as kind of growing vertically and moving up the ladder with a higher title. - Yeah, and I want to take another question. This is from Rajasheker in Sunnyvale, California, beautiful place. "How can you increase your chances of hearing back from a job?" I think this is one that everyone struggles with. The first one, and obviously, Rajasheker, I don't know your specific situation, but I would say a lot of times, people, they apply for the wrong jobs. And especially, you know, in this environment, people apply to a lot of jobs, and it seems counterintuitive, but you really need to focus on the quality of your applications and not the quantity. And then also I think holistically when it comes to job searching and, you know, it comes down to, like, do I know people there? Can I reach out to the hiring manager? Can I reach out to someone in the talent acquisition organization? And all of those things, I think, come together. And there's never a guarantee that you're going to hear back, but you can increase the odds by doing those little activities by saying, "Listen, I'm going to do a cover letter." And your cover letter may never be read, but it might be. So that may increase it. Do you have any other tips? - I totally agree. I hear from job seekers all the time that, "I applied to, like, 200-plus jobs, and I'm not hearing back." And I'm like, well the odds at that point, you know, ghosting kind of is inevitable. But I do think this also goes back to what Carla was saying about when you want to maintain in contact with somebody in your network for a future job and you kind of check in here and there, that polite persistence is also super important when it comes to hearing back on a hiring decision and giving yourself enough time. So working with the recruiter and saying, "Hey, when do you think I should hear back next?" and they say, "Oh, within a week," and it's past that week, you're probably okay to follow up. - Yeah, totally, it's sort of, you know, if you were on that side, you know, how much of a follow-up would you deem too much? So it's like, you know, put yourself on the other side. - Yeah, 1,000%. - And you know, speaking of hearing back, we love hearing from our members. So first of all, I just want to thank you all for joining us for today's event. You all have such great questions, and I'd love to continue this conversation and hear from you. So please post on LinkedIn using the hashtag WatchWithPremium. Tag Carla, Gianna, and me with your insights from today's chat. And also, don't forget to follow Carla on LinkedIn. She has so many incredible videos. Obviously, you saw her in action today. All of her advice is just top quality. And remember, a recording of today's event will be available on this page for Premium subscribers. And if you like what you saw today, join me Wednesday, February 19th for a workshop where I'll be teaching you how to build a strong professional brand on LinkedIn. And I'll see you then. (upbeat music)